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16 de novembro de 2010 às 9:35
Bravo, fina avaliação essa do bem estar como mérito. Mas ali não seria BuñUel?
abraço.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 9:50
[...] Revista Zé Pereira» Arquivo do Blog » Vestindo a camisa revistazepereira.com.br/vestindo-a-camisa/ – view page – cached Volta e meia alguém chama atenção para o fato de que essa coluna critica demais a classe média, como se pudesse demonizar uma faixa da população brasileira demarcada pelo rendimento familiar e como se seu autor não pertencesse a ela. Certíssima a observação. Tweets about this link [...]
16 de novembro de 2010 às 10:37
“…transformar o bem-estar na recompensa final do mérito é uma falácia”, nunca uma frase encaixou tão bem para definir a babaquice de toda a humanidade.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 10:40
Enquanto a empresa manda você vestir a camisa Hering, o dono veste um terno Armani.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 11:18
Arnaldo, assim é a vida: uns defendem a classe média, conforme sua visão, como se fossem torcida de time de futebol. Outros se acham muito espertos descendo a ripa nessa classe. Na boa, gosto dos seus textos, mas se é para falar de humor, Caco Antibes esculhamba a classe média com muito mais graça. A não ser que suas críticas não tenham a intenção de fazer rir, do que duvido.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 12:29
Arnaldo, creio que as críticas, ao menos pelos últimos comentários que li, tenham sido mais no sentido da generalização do que o alvo em si.
E, assim como você, o Ed Motta lançou aos quatro ventos (talvez mais para “causar” do que como se tivesse chegado a uma conclusão): “o mundo é fabuloso, o ser humano é que não é legal”…
16 de novembro de 2010 às 12:40
Acho justas as críticas do Arnaldo à classe média. Nós, da classe média, em geral, somos totalmente apáticos e desinteressados pelos problemas ao nosso redor. A expressão máxima de nossa indignação com uma injustiça é esbravejar na frente da tv ou fazer um comentário em um blog.
Ou tô mentindo?
No mais, acho que seria interessante que o pessoal que reclama das generalizações com a classe média postassem aqui uma lista com suas principais contribuições para com a humanidade, desconstruindo assim a idéia de que a classe media é bobalhona (obs: não vale citar grupos separatistas bizarros como o tal do “São Paulo para os Paulistas”)
16 de novembro de 2010 às 12:44
Dias, + 1 para voce se inspirar:
http://mediacenter.clicrbs.com.br/templates/player.aspx?uf=1&contentID=149749&channel=47
- Hoje qq miseravel tem carro.
Tem o blog dele tambeim:
http://wp.clicrbs.com.br/luizcarlosprates/?topo=77,2,18
16 de novembro de 2010 às 13:03
P.S: o Dias tem fixacao pelo Miguel Falabela… Freud e Nanny People explicam.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 13:30
Ferdinando, estou começando a crer que você é que tem fixação pela minha pessoa, seu projeto de humorista de stand up.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 13:32
Suco, que tal aproveitar seu momento Torquemada e apontar as SUAS principais contribuições para a humanidade?
16 de novembro de 2010 às 13:57
Renata Paraguaçu is back.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 14:43
Só um adendo para o Suco (sic) que sintetizou: “Nós, da classe média, em geral, somos totalmente apáticos e desinteressados pelos problemas ao nosso redor.”
Meu caro, o problema não está na conclusão, mas, nas premissas. Diz pra gente onde é que a classe alta e a baixa se interessam pelos problemas que não sejam de si próprias?
Parafraseando Nelson Rodrigues: Todo reducionismo é burro!
16 de novembro de 2010 às 14:55
andei pesquisando.
a tal renata paraguaçu também usava a palavra “reducionista”
será?!
16 de novembro de 2010 às 15:09
“Diz pra gente onde é que a classe alta e a baixa se interessam pelos problemas que não sejam de si próprias?”
Henrique, sua frase foi sucinta e direta ao ponto.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 15:35
Henrique, penso da seguinte maneira: as classes baixas têm motivos de sobra pra se mobilizar, mas não o fazem pois além de ter menos acesso a cultura e informação, têm que se preocupar em garantir o leitinho das crianças. Já as classes altas… por que se preocupariam? Afinal, eles são os privilegiados!
Estranho é a classe média, que tem acesso a informação, não desfrutam dos privilégios dos ricos, mas, mesmo assim, não se mobilizam. Acho que a última frase do texto do Arnaldo ilustra bem o que quero dizer.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 15:40
Dias, eu não estou me absolvendo de nenhuma culpa, to me colocando na fogueira tambem! Infelizmente, pertenço à classe média apática, e não tenho contribuição alguma pra citar.
Mas você, que diz que a classe média não é assim, deve ter alguma contra-prova. Fala uma pra gente!
16 de novembro de 2010 às 15:43
Caraca, Dias, larga de ser rabugento! Vai fazer uma aula de Karatê pra descarregar as energias!
16 de novembro de 2010 às 16:15
Suco, não estou aqui para apresentar contra-prova alguma. Quando aponto a implicância do Arnaldo com a classe média, é mais por questão de repertório.
O problema não é a classe média, ou qualquer outra classe, ser apática. A questão é imaginar que necessariamente deva-se “fazer alguma coisa” para “mudar o que está aí”, só para apelar a um velho chavão que se ouve pelas ruas.
Se cada um fizesse o mínimo, não seria necessário imaginar grandes atitudes para mudar o mundo.
Parece simplório o exemplo que darei, mas imagine se cada pessoa, ao menos nas grandes cidades, não jogasse lixo deliberadamente no chão. A época das chuvas seria menos tortuosa, só para dizer uma consequência perceptível. E não teria sido necessário uma grande contribuição de ninguém, mas tão-somente fazer o mínimo exigível.
Sabe o final do “Cândido”, de Voltaire? É por aí.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 16:15
ReMo, rabugento sou. E com reações feito a sua, rabugento persistirei.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 16:46
acho que a principal razão por que a classe média é alvo preferencial dos humoristas não é porque esta deixa de se mobilizar.
acho que a tiração é mais porque é uma classe ridícula e, apesar disso, se acha.
um exemplo muito mal escolhido, mas que me ocorre agora, é de quando eu tinha uns 14 anos e um cara mais velho veio me criticar por gostar de heavy metal e punk. perguntei o que ele gostava e a resposta foi: música clássica.
mais tarde fiquei sabendo que a maioria dos discos dele eram do ray conniff e richard clayderman.
pois é. ele se achava.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 17:01
Dias, “fazer a sua parte” todo mundo faz. E não tem dado muto certo.
A maioria das pessoas acorda cedo, trabalha, cumpre horário certinho, não joga lixo no chão, faz o dever de casa. E vêm sido assim historicamente. Mesmo assim, vê se acabou a seca no nordeste, ou a fome na Africa, ou a guerra no Iraque.
Por essas e outras é que, entre o meu chavão velho e o seu chavão mais velho ainda, fico com o meu.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 17:05
vão comer uma buceta, vão
16 de novembro de 2010 às 17:46
poxa, o dias deixou passar essa:
arnaldo, o certo é “estrato” social e não “extrato” social.
mas gostei do texto assim mesmo.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 18:07
brasileiro é tudo preguiçoso, essa é a real…
16 de novembro de 2010 às 18:22
o iaz agora pareceu o josé carlos prates…
16 de novembro de 2010 às 18:24
Dias, eu sou biba. E nada melhor do que uma biba para reconhecer outra. Me conta qual é a sua fantasia. Oficial da Gestapo?
16 de novembro de 2010 às 19:39
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eZXsIkvNRYM/TNB76pNwGbI/AAAAAAAAAs4/cHifDJqjMD4/s1600/classe_media_sieber_04.jpg
16 de novembro de 2010 às 19:42
“knit, good woman, knit, knit!”
by chandler bing
16 de novembro de 2010 às 21:05
Principal contribuição da classe média (agora contando com a ascendente classe C): Mover a economia de qualquer país. Qualquer teoria socio-economica besta explica isso. Não justifica nenhum mimimi.
Mas aqui no Brasil do PMDB, até esse reducionismo já não adianta mais, assim como a dicotomoia esquerda-direita também não é mais válida, pelo motivo que a única classe que REALMENTE é privilegiada é a classe política.
Por que não adianta se mobilizar, para por exemplo, colocar pena de 30 anos para corrupção? “Porque não podemos tomar uma decisão com base no calor popular”, diria qualquer um do STF. Aqui no Brasil, até a democracia consegue ser ruim.
16 de novembro de 2010 às 21:21
e a ditadura foi branda, não é, cabron?
16 de novembro de 2010 às 23:47
Não foi branda não amigo (que ainda está na brincadeirinha de criança de esquerda x direita). Mas pelo menos podíamos dizer “O Brasil é uma merda pq tem a ditadura”. Agora temos a democracia, e aí vimos que não adianta, é essa merda aí mesmo e não dá mais pra melhorar.
Depois de 16 anos de PT+PSDB, é inegável que algo melhorou para uma parcela da população, mas eu não consigo perceber que foi o “povo” o responsável por escolher seu próprio caminho de melhoria de vida. A ÚNICA vez que vi um movimento de mudança desse status quo chegar perto de algo foi o Gabeira bater na trave da prefeitura. Mas no cassino é impossível ganhar da casa.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 1:38
lembrei da frase do millôr fernandes:
“A diferença entre uma democracia e um país totalitário e que na democracia todo mundo reclama, ninguém vive satisfeito. Mas se você perguntar a qualquer um cidadão de uma ditadura o que você acha do seu país, ele responde sem hesitação. ‘Não posso me queixar’”.
cabron, amigo, você está muito negativo.
só lembrando: não é o stf que impede pena de 30 anos para corrupção, amigo.
é o congresso, amigão.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 7:55
mauro, tem razão: seu exemplo foi muito mal escolhido.
——————————
Suco, você está muito mal informado. O que mais vejo quando saio na rua é gente emporcalhando a rua de propósito, dirigindo sem um mínimo de educação, reclamando da corrupção enquanto paga para alguém fraudar o INSS em favor de alguma tia velha…
As pessoas estão LONGE de cumprirem com o mínimo que deveriam fazer. Eu não me excluo dessa conta, mas tento ser mais coerente.
Garanto que, se as pessoas realmente buscassem serem honestas em vez de achar que a honestidade alheia é atestado de otário, não acabariam os problemas que você citou. Mas eles poderiam ser menores.
É muita pretensão, ou mesmo ingenuidade, achar que somente as grandes ações são capazes de mudar o mundo. Deus mora nos detalhes.
Esse papo de que agir dentro dos conformes não vai acabar com a fome no mundo é coisa de revolucionário deitado no sofá da sala.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 7:58
Suco, faltou dizer: se as pessoas cumprissem seus horários corretamente, como você diz que acontece, o atraso em todos os eventos e compromissos públicos e privados no Brasil não teria se convertido em costume.
Nossa mania de começar tudo atrasado já virou característica cultural lá fora. E pelo menos esse estereótipo os gringos tem razão de manter.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 8:51
fala, mauro.
não conhecia esse luiz carlos prates. Acabei de ver o video em que ele desabafa sobre a farra das passagens. Foi engraçado.
Fundaram até um movimento em nome do cara. Nas ruas eu não vi, mas já está na net. Um começo um tanto enérgico eu diria.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 8:52
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkk… pesquisei o cara errado.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 8:56
o jose carlos prates que voce falou é o mancha?
17 de novembro de 2010 às 9:00
Ok, Dias. A culpa é do jeitinho brasileiro.
Então por que será que existem países que não têm toda essa “malandragem”, mas passam por perrengues maiores que os nossos? E só ver os asiáticos, sempre tão disciplinadinhos, mas tomando na cabeça igual.
O que falta no Brasil (e no mundo) é consi~encia política.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 9:23
Mauro: Nem o congresso nem o STF agem “sob o calor da opinião pública”. Logo, eles nunca mudam porra nenhuma. Achei até um milagre essa lei da ficha limpa ter passado (E olha que passou por MUITO pouco, já que vários ministros entraram numa de “tem que ver isso direito aê”)
17 de novembro de 2010 às 10:10
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17 de novembro de 2010 às 11:11
Suco, as coisas no Oriente são mais complicadas de explicar. E quem não garante que, na Ásia, não exista uma malandragem de espécie diferente da nossa?
Quando eu digo “fazer o mínimo”, isso abarca desde mínimas normas de higiene (como será que a Índia lida com isso?) a cumprir os deveres que a lei impõe.
Além disso, em muitos países da Ásia, há problemas que nem de longe imaginamos como são. Terremotos, maremotos, furacões e outros fenômenos da natureza são corriqueiros por lá. Por aqui, a falta de educação das pessoas e de decência dos governantes faz com que enchentes e deslizamentos que nunca deveriam acontecer arrasem com milhares de vidas.
Não nego que nos falte consciência política. Só não acredito que isso venha a acontecer a partir de ações grandiosas. É de pequenos gestos que um dia as coisas podem melhorar. Não precisamos de uma juventude cara-pintada. Bastaria que ela não fosse tão babaca quanto a geração que os antecedeu.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 11:11
A “massa faminta” não passa na televisão,
Não tem website nem Cartão
Não lê em embalagem pra ver
o que pode ou não comer
A “massa faminta” é a grande maioria
amontoada em pilhas pela periferia
Enquanto você navega pela rede
a massa faminta se fode na enchente
A “massa faminta” não pensa na revolução
Não lê Bakunin nem Proudhon
Não sabe ler nem escrever,
não vive do Food Not Bombs
A “massa faminta” não escuta você
e sua banda de protesto que canta em inglês
A “massa faminta” não senta pra discutir
Lenin, Tolstoi, Nietzsche ou vegetarianismo
A “massa faminta” na sociedade sem leis
vai roubar todos seus cds
do Youth of Today ou do Rattus
e vai botar no seu cu!
17 de novembro de 2010 às 11:20
Cabron, o calor da opinião pública não pode ser desprezado. Porém, não pode servir de motor para as mudanças legislativas. O Judiciário é, por natureza, mais “imóvel” do que os outros poderes, pois visa à aplicação da lei. Cobremos mais mobilidade do Congresso. Mobilidade que faltou no caso da lei da ficha limpa, que se originou de iniciativa popular. Sou totalmente a favor de leis assim. Porém, e você pode consultar qualquer jurista, as mudanças na lei eleitoral só podem valer a partir de um ano após sua entrada em vigor. Se fôssemos considerar unicamente esse aspecto, a lei da ficha limpa não deveria ser aplicada nesta eleição.
Não interessa que a lei seja bem intencionada. Sabe por quê? Vou exemplificar: a lei de crimes hediondos foi considerada parcialmente inconstitucional pelo STF há algum tempo. O argumento é que a restrição à progressão de pena só poderia acontecer via emenda constitucional. Ou seja, manter presos traficantes de drogas e outros criminosos por mais tempo é algo importante. Mas não pode ser feito de qualquer maneira, sob pena de se considerar a lei inconstitucional. O resultado prático dessa falta de atenção à forma legal? Traficantes soltos pelo Brasil afora muito antes do que o esperado.
O Brasil tem que mudar. Mas não a qualquer preço. Não de qualquer maneira. Quem paga errado, paga duas vezes.
O que você chama de “tem que ver isso direito aê” é obrigação dos ministros do STF.
E não se pode confundir qualquer berreiro com “calor da opinião pública”. Imagine se levassem a sério a ideia da pena de morte no Brasil depois do caso do menino João Hélio? Numa dessas, alguém próximo a você poderia cometer um homicídio e seria executado pelo Estado. Fácil falar da impunidade quando ninguém enxerga o risco de voltarmos aos tempos das bruxas de Salém.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 11:22
Alam, para escrever esses primorosos versos parnasianos, você usou um computador, certo?
A quem quer enganar com esse discursozinho em favor da “massa faminta”?
17 de novembro de 2010 às 13:22
Dias, eu gostei do poema do Alan, tambem sou a favor da massa faminta, da massa gorda, da massa mignon, al dente e etc…, completamente sem graça esse meu comentario né, paz e amor a todos, muito saúdavel essa discussão
17 de novembro de 2010 às 14:15
Então, não pode ser “de qualquer maneira”, como a classe média poderia se mobilizar? Ir no meio do mato fazer guerrilha? E então não pode reclamar de nada, tudo é excelente e fantástico? Sempre acabamos dando voltas….
17 de novembro de 2010 às 15:08
Cabron, quando eu digo que o Brasil não pode mudar de qualquer maneira, eu me refiro mais às mudanças legislativas e à aplicação das leis.
Sou a favor da mobilização social, venha de quem vier, contanto que seja balizada pelas mínimas regras legais e que não objetive à extinção do estado de coisas. Eis o porquê de não se admitir que um grupo terrorista, por exemplo, tenha vez em uma democracia como se se tratasse de uma associação inofensiva.
Reclamar é importante. Aliás, somos um povo que reclama menos do que deveria. Porém, é preciso saber do que, a quem e por que reclamar.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 17:16
dias, releia o poema que o alam postou (pode não ser dele, tenha isso em mente).
o autor do poema está contra os revolucionários de discurso, os esquerdistas que lêem bakunin e proudhon, ou discutem lenin, e os jovens com suas letras de protesto em inglês, ou os liberal pussies que checam embalagem e são vegetarianos.
não vem ao caso se o alan tem computador ou não. a idéia no poema bate bastante com o que você diz aqui.
será que você tem que implicar até com quem concorda com você?
se sim, então você é um chato de galocha.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 17:59
iaz, eu errei o nome do cara.
e, falando em nome, qual é o seu, que ora é laz, e outras iaz?
eu conheci o prates agora, por um link que o ferdinando postou.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 18:34
Só Orwell expulsa demônio das pessoa.
17 de novembro de 2010 às 22:46
mauro, quem disse que eu NÃO sou um chato de galochas?
Prefiro ler alguém de quem discordo, mas que sabe expressar bem suas ideias, do que alguém com quem concordo, mas que é equivocado.
Não creio que o poema que o Alam publicou (se ele não o escreveu, que indique a autoria, não sou obrigado a adivinhar) tenha algo a ver com o que penso. Achei rasteiro demais.
18 de novembro de 2010 às 14:20
profundo mesmo é copiar um texto do Arnaldo e, ainda por cima, dizer que foi seu melhor momento na zé pereira, né dias?
18 de novembro de 2010 às 14:38
Eu quero mais é que a clase baixa e a classe média se explodam.
18 de novembro de 2010 às 14:49
Iaz, está me acusando de plágio? Aponte o texto do Arnaldo eu teria copiado e a qual artigo de minha autoria você se referiu.
Comentários zé-graças feito o de criaturas feito o Ferdinando, até tolero. Mas acusações vagas de que copiei um texto alheio, só admito se apresentar provas.
Eu não gastaria a liberdade criativa que a Zé Pereira me ofertou para plagiar alguém, ainda mais um colega da casa.
Se eu tratei de algum tema já abordado pelo Arnaldo, saiba que temas e assuntos não são passíveis de registro.
A não ser que a Zé Pereira determine que eu só possa falar de assuntos que ainda não foram abordados por nenhum dos demais articulistas, sinto-me livre para considerar seu comentário algo leviano, na melhor das hipóteses.
18 de novembro de 2010 às 19:59
acho que o laz se referiu ao da brodagem, já que o arnaldo tem um artigo de maio com o nome “era da brodagem” e você, mais de uma vez, se referiu àquele seu texto como dos seus melhores.
essa foi fácil.
mas não achei plágio.
18 de novembro de 2010 às 21:31
Dias, a verdade é que não há como usar a malandragem do brasileiro, nem do asiático (se é que tal malandragem existe), nem do povo de qualquer lugar do mundo pra justificar problemas socio-econômicos.
Pense um pouco… em quantos porcento será que o PIB do Brasil iria aumentar se o brasileiro chegasse 5 minutos mais cedo pra trabalhar? Acho que não seria muito, né?
E as enchentes no Vale do Itajaí, será que o impacto ambiental do lixo nas ruas causa tanto estrago assim? Ou será que o problema maior são as cidades mal planejadas, onde metade do pessoal mora em áreas de risco?
Esse tipo de problema é complicado, envolve uma porrada de fatores e interesses de diferentes camadas da sociedade. Dizer que mudanças individuais isoladas resolvem tudo é meio que fugir da raia… não dá pra negar que, ás vezes, são necessárias mudanças (pequenas ou “grandiosas”) pensadas coletivamente, mudanças na forma como nos organizamos.
19 de novembro de 2010 às 2:13
Suco, lá vem você distorcer minhas palavras. Eu nunca disse que pequenas ações são capazes de resolver grandes problemas. Eu disse que pequenos atos de cada um podem mitigar o impacto de certos problemas. Se a pontualidade e a civilidade fossem valores mais prezados no Brasil, seríamos um país mais confiável, o que renderia dividendos a longo prazo. Desculpe pelas palavras que direi, mas achei ridículo você questionar quanto o PIB aumentaria se o brasileiro chegasse 5 minutos mais cedo para trabalhar. O impacto ambiental do lixo pode não ser o principal fator para explicar a tragédia das enchentes, mas se as bocas de lobo não fossem tão entupidas de lixo, as águas das chuvas afetariam menos pessoas ao menos longe dos morros. A não ser que você defenda que jogar lixo em qualquer lugar não afeta a vida de ninguém. Aí, ridículo seria até um elogio para o seu modo de pensar.
19 de novembro de 2010 às 2:15
mauro, eu não havia atentado para a coincidência dos temas. Na verdade, o meu texto sobre a brodagem não seria dos melhores, mas sim o que mais me deu gosto de escrever até agora. E o trabalho para achar a foto do Tarantino…
Pelo menos você não foi leviano feito o Iaz. Apontar plágio é coisa séria.
23 de novembro de 2010 às 9:30
Não me orgulho nem me humilho. Só acho que quem quer xingar recorre muito facilmente ao epíteto “classe média”, assim como antigamente (e até hoje…) se recorria facilmente ao “de favelado”. Por causa do intuito inicial, que é xingar, me incomoda - tentativa de igualar quantidade de dinheiro (segundo seus preconceitos) e valor intrínseco. Se dissessem, por exemplo: “soltar pipa é coisa de favelado” ou “comer sushi é coisa de classe média”, nada de errado aí - você considera soltar pipa e comer sushi coisas legais; você só está generalizando (o que acho OK), e não querendo depreciar ou proibir uma prática causando vergonha nas pessoas (vergonha de parecer “classe média” ou “favelado”).
23 de novembro de 2010 às 15:03
O Mauro entendeu o espírito da coisa, além de acertar que não é meu.
27 de novembro de 2010 às 12:04
Gostei do texto, não conhecia a revista, vai para os bookmarks, sempre bom ler gente que parece ponderada. Troca de ideias e debate é fundamental.
Queria fazer duas ponderações:
1) Sempre que há generalização, há o risco de ferir suscetibilidades e cometer injustiças.
2) Percepção da própria classe é algo muito complexo. Muita gente que acredita ser classe média, na verdade é rico (só não é riquíssimo) e muita gente que gosta de acreditar que é pobre, na verdade é classe média. Além disso, pessoas com os mesmos rendimentos podem ter percepções totalmente diferentes. Uma enfermeira de um hospital público pode ganhar a mesma coisa que a babá de uma criança de classe alta. A primeira provavelmente vai se perceber como classe média pois tem contato com um monte de gente com muito mais difiucldades que ela, enquanto a outra pode até ganhar um pouco mais e sempre vai achar que é pobre, pela comparação com seus patrões e seus padrões de vida.